At the outset, let me make it clear that this is to hurt religious sentiments, for, that’s the problem, religion. Not one religion, but the entire concept of religion. I doubt if God, if he really does exist, really wanted his favourite disciples and messengers to write books about how to lead life, only to be conveniently misinterpreted by his ‘followers’ a thousand years later and fight over which line means what, and more so, spread terror, forcefully convert and burn places of worship in the name of god. Krishna churns out the Bhaghvat Geeta in the middle of a war, Manu writes stupid one-sided laws because he thinks he knows life like the back of his hand, Allah comes to Mohhamed and whispers the secrets of leading a perfect life in his ears and he writes it down for us, and the Bible is written for some random reason before Jesus was born and it is suddenly accepted as the way to lead life after Jesus becomes a star. Then kings of Europe and Popes conveniently change it to suit their needs.
As much as we can blame our forefathers for getting sucked into this vacuum called religion, and our present citizens for spreading the religion and spreading violence and terror in the name of god, you have to blame that common man, who first asks his fellow citizen what his religion is, that common man, who bases every problem and the solution on religion, the common man who endorses religion in a public manner. And the biggest culprit of all is that common man, who silently feels happy when his religion wins. He might not go out and fight for his religion or spread it, but he feels happy when someone else does it.
Take the Saffron Terror for example. People I know sit at home and watch on television how those cruel goons are burning churches and killing people, and say “Oh my god! What are they doing?” But deep within them, they like it. They like the fact that their religion is showing power, and the other religion, is just waiting to avenge this. They are sitting and plotting for the next bomb blast. For what? Religion. And the worst part in all of this, the politician who is making money with every blast and riot and conversion, knows the inner sentiments of people. He knows they like it, he wants them to like him, he needs their vote, he does it. Again and again. Karnataka is up next. We can see the Modi effect coming, the number of SIMI activists are increasing and growing stronger, and conversions are slowly rising.
So who do we blame? Blame yourself. Blame you parents. Because you and your family never understood one fact, every religion has creeps. Every saint, sadhu, mullah and godman is a faker. And that goes to EVERY religion. Blame yourself if you take the side of one religion. There are good people in every religion, and there are bad people in every religion too. And the bad ones are more. Stop living in a utopian world.
Communal cleansing is bad. Killing the kaffir and a million innocents in a blast is bad. Conversion is bad, not only forceful conversion, but conversion itself. Keep the “law allows it” argument to yourself. Twenty years in India I have understood the worth and the correctness of law, that too for religion! We don’t even have a uniform civil code.
I take permission from Rags to narrate her incident. She went to cover the recent church attacks in Udupi for The Manipal Journal. She met an acquaintance there who is known for his rightist inclination. He said, “Oh, nothing much, these are just small incidences.” Two minutes later, while she is standing outside the hospital and having a first-hand interaction with the three or four mildly injured people, she gets a message from a Christian sympathiser, “15 people badly injures, 1.5 lacs worth of property demolished.”
Both of them were wrong, both of them are a part of the problems our country faces. They take sides, they are adding up to the problem. They are divinding the country, they are suppressing and spreading hatred.
They say Saffroner led riots are ‘reactions’. Yeah right it is! What kind of an impulsive reaction is an orchestrated attack on thousands of people? They say Islamists terrorist have gone to the level for bombing because they have been pushed to it. Oh, give me a break. They enjoy the laws they want, they are pretty much well off economically and if they have the power to spread terror to this level, they have the power to eradicate all problems without bombing. They say conversion is not wrong, hell it is! Why do you need to convert if you really believe in god and just helping someone out! It is the same old colonial funda, convert as many people for political gains.
However, this is not to say that religion should be done away with. All this while, I was talking about religion in practice. Religion in principle, though to me looks useless, can be followed. But keep it to yourself. You can pray to god at home, you need not go to Tirupati, Mecca or The Vatican. And yeah, let us not even talk about giving grants to temple, Haj and Churches from MY TAX MONEY, when I hate these concepts.
And yes, secularism, whatever it means, is a big joke. Congressmen should go take a hack. You can’t have equality in religion when ALL the decisions are based on religion and you give useless reservations in education and employment based on religion and caste. Ok, do it, but don’t call it to be a way to do any kind of justice. Lets learn a bit, a bit, from the secularism in France.
The bottom line is this, if you want “peace and equality”, take that concept called religion and tuck it under your coat. Keep it yourself. Today, you are the problem. You support your religion publicly; you think your people are right. No, every religion has creeps. Every religion has to be blamed. If Ram made a mistake, so did Ahmed and Antony and vice versa. Like they say, “Taali ek haath se nahi bajti”. Sabko pakdo, sabko maaro. Aur aisa maaro ki woh vaapas na aaye. (Catch hold of every one of them and hit them. Hit them so hard that they won’t get back.) And yeah, Ahimsa can wait till it is actually possible.
34 comments:
I agree to the post to the T.
You see, religion is the safest political investment. Those in power have their geo-political agendas in mind; to achieve those agendas, they need strong mass mobilization. Religion is the best glue to bind people blindly against some "assumed" enemy. Most of those people rioting on the streets in the name of religion don't even know who their enemy is. Or more significantly why the other person is the enemy in the first place.
While self-proclaimed religious leaders burp out satisfied after each instance of communal flare-up; the common man, who is ironically his own worst enemy, suffers.
Aah. You beat me to the first post. But, hell, no matter!
About half a year ago, my brother got thrown out of a friend's house in the wee hours of the morning because he is a muslim boy.
Now don't get me wrong. Instead of throwing a fit and generating philosophical arguments in my head to later spit out at the old couple who subjected the kiddo to the humiliation, I laughed the matter off.
All this pointing fingers at the politics of relgion allows you to make your statement claiming the common man to be their worst and suffering enemy. The common man is the culprit sweetheart. You and I are the majority that categorise ourselves under religions with pretty coloured pencils.
One question. You seem like one of the many against the concept of religion!
What do you jot down in forms that ask for your religion? Agnost, atheist or..
Hindu. FC. Because I was born one. I don't give a shit about religion - I don't care about its existence or otherwise. So a box in a form makes no difference to me.
One question we don't bother thinking about - where, why, how was religion born. Especially WHY?
When I was 2 years and 10 months old, my parents chose a school for me depending on how close to home it was. When I was 14 years old, we sat together and chose a tuition center based on how good the teacher was and made sure it wasn't too far away. When I was 17, I chose a college depending on what I want to do - distance didn't matter anymore.
What is the use for religion today?
Ajinkya, why does it look to me like u r sympathising with the comman man? He is the culprit dude, and he deserves how he is being treated today...
Cat,
Although we seem to agree on the fact that the common man is the culprit, u seem to have misunderstood my post. I have blamed the common man throughout my post.
I am def one among the people who are against the concept of religion, and yes, I write "Hindu, Forward Caste" when asked to fill forms cos i was "born" one, which precisely is my complaint against the system. But why should that change the way i think or blog? The system i hate but i still have to live with demands it, i give it. And I write against it wherever I can.. :)
Rags,
Religion is business today. Money. Lots of it.
And Cat, I was wondering, what an action like just "laughing it off" does to the society. There is assumed, superficial peace for a while, but the attitude which could do some considerable damage to someone else later, remains. No, dont take a morcha out, but laughing it off sure isnt a great reaction. :)
@ Ram.
The post was refered to Ajinkya's misinterpretation of your post.
@ Ram and Rags
What I dont get is how all our religious categorization is as simple as just being 'born' into one. That is the basis of all the brain washing, dont you think? You have to belong to it, because you we BORN into it. How can a human being, with no experience of life itself be subjected to succumb to such labeling and stick to it without question?
Can the generations before us really make this spiritual decision for us? What if (at this stage of life, when we are capable of making the judgements we want to make) we choose to opt out of the religious circles around us? I dont know of laws, but can we legally turn agnostic? And if yes, will we eventually?
Or like all other statements we make about being anti-religion, we shelve action away in show boxes at the far ends of our cupboards.
So yes, Ram, it does make a difference to the way you think or blog. It makes you a hypocrite. The system cannot demand something if a fair number show signs against it. Will you stand up against it is the question!
And for the reaction that became the better of me, I agree with you, i should have done something! Which is why I stated my own flaw during my own mumble-jumble of religious opinions. I know better now.
I was just thinking...
Isn't no action during the situation with my kid brother the right action? By making a scene what would we have achieved?
In this world full of different communities, groups, societies, ethinicity, race, color, political boundaries and other associated blah, you find the odd make-life-uncomfortable group.
The grandparents of the brother's friend seemed hardcore devout and im guessing a fight is what they were looking for. With silence, we submissed their baseless doing.
What would you guys have done? Realistically and in all honesty! Im curious.
Cat,
I dunno how me being a hypocrite and the first few paras of your comment are related. I agree to your first few paras abt religion being born with us.
And, whats the scene with doing things "legally" ?? does it really matter? do we discriminate based on religion? Then why do we have to wait for the to allow us to be "legally agnostic". as it is, it is the attitude wich is the problem, not our 'legal' status.
Filling up a form does not make me a hypocrite. If i based my actions on my religion, took decisions on religion, and blindly believe in religion, it makes me a hypocrite. Thanks to manipal, I have been able to be faraway from the 'religious' actions at home.
Yes, I stand up against it, but to my capacity. I dont have to do things "legally" to voice my opinions. I come from a strict brahminical 'religious' family. But I get Muslim friends home and make them eat in the same table and plates as we eat. my mom takes a hack if she has a problem. neighbours in my complex ask me not to bring 'other people' into the temple complex, which is also a nice place to relax. I have had fights with them and I am waiting to get back home to teach a few more of them some serious lessons. Thats the only way they'll shut up i realised.
Seriously, Cat, I am amazed you think only argument or 'creating a scene' would have worked. Yes, it is the 'make-them-uncomfortable' attitude, cos their attitude can only be changed my making them uncomfortabe. But shouting back is not making them uncomfortable, or probably not the only way.
Pack your bags, leave the house, keep ur bag outside the doorway, get back silently and tell those grandies in a decent and slow tone, that we are all human beings before people of a particular religion. No, its not a scene out of Bollywood, it has been known to work. However, the grandparent might not change, the parents could, and the grandchild will get the message and at least he would not repeat what they did. If he was tolerant already, he wud be much stronger and probably even talk back abt this in his family.
Small actions can bring about small changes, positive ones. Not trying does'nt do anything. Whats the harm in trying peacefully?
Your bro's reaction was not wrong, but it was not THE right thing either. We have been genetically engineered to adjust to the situations always as Peaceful Indians. Not really a great characterstic. Silence is fine, but it did not dismiss their notion at all. They probably were proud they got rid of someone they dint like.
But, of course, we are moving far away from the topic. Lets get back to blaming the aam aadmi for his foolishness. So yeah, why do we blame the politicians if all of us, also those people who want 'peace' actually take sides?
1. A gun can be used to defend or offend. Religion is not an object with standard properties but a tool with applications, be it good or bad. So do you have a problem with the 'God' or the 'follower'?
2. How can you comment on an entity, namely God, without even seeing/experiencing/feeling it. It's like a cat saying that it can't see the dog watching it just because the cat has closed it's eye.
3. May I know what is the definition, according to YELL, of religion, follower, God and life?
4. Religion is a way of life. Music can be called a religion. Partying can be called a religion. Politics can be called a religion.
5. "you have to blame that common man, who first asks his fellow citizen what his religion is, that common man, who bases every problem and the solution on religion,"-the problem is with the society here, and not with the religion.
6. "People I know sit at home and watch on television how those cruel goons are burning churches and killing people, and say “Oh my god! What are they doing?” But deep within them, they like it. They like the fact that their religion is showing power, and the other religion, is just waiting to avenge this. They are sitting and plotting for the next bomb blast"-Please prove these points.
7. @ Ajinkya-"Most of those people rioting on the streets in the name of religion don't even know who their enemy is"-Does the soldier at the frontline know who his enemy is? I am asking not about his nationality but his identity as a person. It is the power on the top that does it. They exchange gifts in Delhi and bullets at Siachen.
8. @ Raga- "Why do we need religion today"? Please tell me why we don't. Answer this question by looking at the useful side of religion and not the misused.
9. If we don't need religion, we dont need sugar in our teas, we don't need salt in our food, we dont need food at the first place. Vitamin tablets and Red Bull would do.
My advice to everyone would be: Please do not try to analyse a huge problem with millions of factors with small parameters. It is like a kid trying to understand why a Black Hole can't be recreated on earth so that the garbage on this earth can be sucked in and cleaned! Sounds wierd and stupid??!! tadaaaa...same pinch!!!
"Media did some bad job at the Arushi case and some dirty things during sting operations. Meddia has always been a pain in the neck. I so wish I could abolish it form the face of this earth."-Elvin Jacob
P.S. Your answer to this question will answer many of your questions that you have asked about Religion.
@Ram: I do not sympathize with the common man: "who is ironically his own worst enemy". Yet, I haven't discounted the fact that he does suffer by his own foolishness. The vulnerability of his religious sentiments is pitted against him; and he remains unknowing of it.
@Cat: You contradict yourself. On one hand you say: "The system cannot demand something if a fair number show signs against it. Will you stand up against it is the question!"
And:
"i should have done something! Which is why I stated my own flaw during my own mumble-jumble of religious opinions."
But, yet again:
"isn't no action during the situation with my kid brother the right action? By making a scene what would we have achieved?"
If one has to stand up to such a thing as religion in our country, there is bound to be a HUGE scene. And it won't be the prettiest of sights then.
Also, what I said to Ram also applies to what you read into my comment. I don't deny that the common man is the culprit, albeit unwittingly so.
When you are so sure of it being a futile fight, it is better to just let be and let go.
If the whole religion thing doesn't disturb me; I'd better just stay shut.
C'mon we're talking of a country whose staple food is religion. You cannot expect to undo and refresh a billion mindsets. You call it a revolution? Want people to stand up to it? I call it absurdly insane. Brainwash over 16% of mankind in an attempt at peace... That'll be reason enough for Holocaust 2.0
So, instead of all these things, I write 'Hindu' in forms.
Amen.
Elvin, firstly, it is not Yell’s opinion. Yell is a platform, it is Ram’s opinion. Dont ask Yell what it thinks of religion etc. Ram thinks all those concepts are a fad.
A gun can never be used to defend. The problem lies with the fact that we have a gun. That itself spread insecurity and terror, making people want to compete with each other to own the best gun. I don’t have a problem with God. I have problem with Religion, in practice. I have a problem with the follower, the average follower, who endorses and fights for his religion more than actually following it.
Sorry, ‘feeling god’ concept does not go too well with me. And, even if it is about feeling god, you need not make a hullah out of it. I wrote, “However, this is not to say that religion should be done away with. All this while, I was talking about religion in practice. Religion in principle, though to me looks useless, can be followed. But keep it to yourself. You can pray to god at home, you need not go to Tirupati, Mecca or The Vatican.”
“The problem is with the society here”: My dear sir, who form the society? The common man, right? Society is not a different entity. The common man has made the society like that.
Well, I cant get photographic or videographic proof for that. Thats why I blog about it, and not try and write it for a newspaper. Blogging gives me the freedom to express what I have seen but will not be able to prove.
You are just endorsing Ajinkya’s points. Yeah, war is bad too. But needed for the country, for countries have economies and life systems. Religion on the other hand is a fad. Not God, religion.
What is the useful side of religion, Elvin? Not God, religion. What’s the useful side?
We shall go “tadaaa” over you example after u have answered these questions and understood our points. :) :P
Abt your next comment, whats the question?
Elvin, distinguish God and religion. God is fine. I mean whatever! But Religion, is kinda tweaked a concept.
And, are you comparing media to religion???
Media is business first, service later. Religion is supposed to be service, is ONLY business today. It is the fact that it is raised and kept up there in the sky that does not make me feel good about it.
The very first conversion that any man would go through is when he is born.. no man is born a hindu, muslim or christian.. our first conversion happens, immediateely after we are born.... at the doctor's table....
Talking about religion... what is religion... at times... i get very confused with the terms relgion, spirituality, faith and god.... i am tryin ma best to find answers...
To a common man.. religion is belief... no man likes his belief to be questioned... coz ultimately we are all egoistic... and we all like to be believe that we are right
Now talking about conflicts.... and violence... i beileve.. violence is of 3 types... one.. wer there is blood.. 2.. the more reasonable and quintessential one.. argument... which is wat;s happenin here.... 3.. silence.. ( in d case of cat) violence is always measured in terms of blood.. and destruction.. isn't ignorance also violence????
coming back to the CULPRIT.... the common man... do you really think.. the common man... has the tym.. or rather... would like to spend his tym... thinkin bout the ideologies and intricacies of religion..religion offers him social existence.. it projects forward GOD.. who finds all the answers to their innumerable questions.... (dont we all lie someone to care for us?)it brings about a sense of faith (Because these religions force them to have that faith)... now.. why would they think so much...
n i think ram.. when u say the common man in the Indian context... u refer to the middle class... because more than half of India... is busy trying to survive.... they really don't have the tym... to spend their mental energy on a concet as void... yet as vast as religion!!!!
The politics behind religion is the religion that we see today.... and if we have to change that.. we have to change the system we live in.... we live in a democracy.. wer everyone has an opinion.. now if my opinion clashes with ram's.. and ram's clashes with ajinkia.... do we have a solution?
Man is innately designed to be greedy... if religion can fetch man money.. h wil go for it... he doesn care..whether ppl die...or houses are burnt.... ultimately.. its bout protecting urself... and getting some monitary benefit out of what we believe in.. if at all god doesn exist... and we evolved... then according to evolution.. only the fittest will survive!!!
now can these things b changed????maybe the system can change.. but can genetics change????
First of all, Dude write your name bugger. This was written under the post:"Posted by YELL"...I don't know who wrote it man..ok...both of us shall stop our YELL'ing from here!! :P
Coming back to the discussion. Well I beg to differ from you when you say that a gun can only cause terror among the people. I am sorry but not every one is in a race to won the best gun. may be in "Blood Diamond" they did. But others don't.
I back Shaz when he says that everone wants to feel that he is right in what he is thinking. That is the truth and most of the conflicts come from this point. Ego's can make them go to any extent.
"The problem is with the society here”: My dear sir, who form the society? The common man, right?"-My dear friend. Heard about hegemony? It is the dominant minority that makes the rules and not the majority. As Shaz said, the common man has more to do that to just analyze the strategies, ideologies, etc.
And you still haven't answered my question of what you think religion means. I stil maintain my stand that religion is nothing but a way of life.
God and Religion are two seperate concepts. But they are very much related to each other.Isn't the government and the law related? Can we do away with the law and just keep the government?
Please tell me if all the things that we have today are needed. This world has a lot of junk, both in mind and kind. Is everything required? The question of needed and not needed is not applicable here. I agree with Shaz when he says that the common man needs faith and religion gives it. If something happens to a close friend then I won't be trusting the doctors that much as much as I will trust God. Cos after sometime even the docs can't do anything. But God can as he has been defined as a 'limitless power with endless love'.
Feeling it does not mean seeing thunder and lightning happen when you get help from God. Nothing dramatic. What I meant was when you see God actually working in your life.
What use does religion have? Well It has given people in this world what the other 6 billion people could not offer them-assurance of a better tomorrow. With the current conditions (trust me religion is not the reason of the misery but the miscreants are. They might quote religion as an excuse but everyone knows the truth), the need for religion has never been greater.
All the problems that you have mentioned are problems with men and not with religion. Show me one point thats wrong with religion (not any in particular religion but as a concept). Whatever is wrong was invented by men (and women too, for the feminists out there)
And the last example that I had quoted had a reason to be quoted.Religion is a necessary thing though I won't call it an evil.It is the men/women who make it look dirty. It was also my reply to Raga's question of "why is it needed".
And by the way Ram, if people you know enjoy what happens in Gujarat and Udupi, tell me man. I will introduce you to new people and may be get you a place to stay where everyone around has sense!!!
Am entering this discussion rather late and after having read through the post and the long comments, i still think at the end of the day, more than religion, it is plain and simply survival that is the root cause behind all the things that has been discussed here.
As Shaazy said we are in a world where the survival of the fittest is the mantra and people (the 'common' people) just harp on any possible thing present to ensure their survival. At one time before the 'social' evolution of man, a dispute over the sharpness of an arrowhead would be settled then and there by a fight to test out the stronger being. But now man has to be more subtle and cunning in his ways for he is after all a 'social' being.
Man endorses religion today just because he sees it as an umbrella that will provide him some protection against others. What with religious intolerance and 'religious' fights being the order of the day, not being in any corner is more dangerous than being in a strong corner. An atheist or an agnostic is looked upon as an outcast nowadays and could seriously get butchered if it comes to an all out war based on religion. By the looks of it that could be where we are headed.
We have taken to religion today just like art or science or exploration or fire and other things were taken up by our ancestors. Religion is portrayed as one thing u can blindly believe and have faith in, in this deceitful world of lust and power. People fell for this. Who is to be blamed? The religious preachers? Or the common man... or more still, the survival instincts of the common man?
"the common man, who is ironically his own worst enemy, suffers." I agree here but all i have to add is that that has always been the case ajinkya. the common man has always been his own enemy coz at the end of the day btw 2 men who have 1 loaf of bread to survive on death of the other is imperative. Who cares about a social level and status when survival is at stake. To 'modern' day man, religion is that food...as u urself said, the staple diet...
A man addicted to liquor, drugs, smoking and so on finds it next to impossible to stop. The same goes for all the religious fanatics of the world today.
I sat and patiently listened to an RSS lawyer explaining to me how in Godhra the hindus suffered more than the muslims... how in karnataka today whatever is happening is only because of provocation... how Christians being a small minority compared to Hindus do not 'fear' the Hindus but the Muslims being far more in number do because apparently over the years they have been provoking the 'mild' 'adaptable' 'peace-seeking' hindus by doing one bad thing after the other. It is such one sided opinions and outlook from 'educated' men that provoke the masses into taking sides. Again the RSS man has a false sense of security just because he is who he is and his words ooze that confidence. To any 'commoner' listening to this the thought would automatically flash across their brain that yes here is a lifeline to survive... same is the case with almost all religions.
If to a person who is dying of hunger, a religious authority offers money and food to convert, will he not? Shouldn't he not? Setting apart all 'social' thoughts, at the end of the day, stripped of all flesh to the bone, do not all of us want to just survive and live another day? Or perhaps, die another day?
I would like to quote one instance to support vineeth.I covered a talk recently at one of the most prestigious institutions of the country. The talk was supposed to be something else but it was changed to the topic of radical Islam. Imagine a top bureaucrat talking about these things from a one sided view with one of the most prestigious journalist in the country backing him up. It was one of the most shameful things that I have ener seen. I knew the political and religious inclinations of the speakers. And I am not new to this topic too. But what about those people who are new to the topic and who don't know about the speakers.They will take in the words of the speakers as THE truth. It will be tough for them to unlearn the 'truth'. It is not the mistake of the 'uninformed submissive majority'. But that of the 'informed dominant minority'
Elvin, sorry abt the YELL-Ram confusion. I jus guessed people wud guess! Sorry! Tts Ram, Its Ram, Its Ram.
@Shaz
Yes, conversion happens at the first stage itself, it is bad. U r right.
I beg to differ. Religion is fake belief. Why cant man believe more in reasons? More in logics? And just cos it cant happen, I am not willing to say it is not wrong.
As u pointed out, silence is violence in some cases. But no! Cat is not being silent here...she is preaching it, while not doing it herself. :P
Shaz! COMMON MAN DOES HAVE THE TIME AND DOES THINK. My dad is common man. HE spends enough money and time on ideologies. Its a fake notion that people dont spend time on thinking. They just think in the wrong way and screw it all up. Dont we read the vedas or the quran or the bible?
I really really dont think the middle class doesnt have the time to spend with religion.
we do have a solutiuon, but only with an open mind. with logic in mind, and make each other agree.
Exactly, so religion is money! rite? not a 'nobel thing'? If thats the agreement, then lets all agree and look at it like business, lifew will be simpler.
It can change, cos genetics is not involed with it, its an escapist assumption.
@elvin
Can u give me an example of where a gun has been used for defence? no need to prove, jus an example! Who are others? Its like saying we need nuclear weapons for detterence and spending a billion dollars on it while having poor people suffer.
Yes, so it is ego, and not religion rite??? ITs EGO.
Dude, the minority is always fooled by the majority..or we are lead to believe that. u dont not blame a person cos he is a fool. the comman man is a fool. and not like minorities dont have power...look at the minoroties in our country!
ok, if religion is a way of life, THEN WHY SHOW IT OFFFF???? why u hell bent on proving in to the world?
I am sad that ur understanding of the God-Religion. God can exist without religion. U beleive in god or Jesus? God or Ram? God or Allah? If you are a true believer, it wont matter to u who the god is. Thats why religion sucks.
And, when we have the law of the land, why have religious laws, which are age old and useless anyway?
Not at all....jus cos there is other junk does not mean we ll take in more junk. U r sick, so u ll expose yourself to more viruses??
HOW ELVIN? neither am i asking for thunderstorms, BUT HOW DO I SEE GOD WORKING IN MY LIFE? Religion works, and does damage to my life.
No concept is bad on its own, its the peopel who screw it up. And thus, u shud do away with concepts which give full-on freedom to people to screw it up...
Like I said Elvin, people I know dont 'tell' me they like it. It is an observation. I cant prove, sorry!
@bibinho
U cant do away with survival, religion, we can try.
Thanks for the comparisons. Religion falls in life with alcohol, drugs et al. Bang ON on one-sidedness!!!
No elvin, i dont think we cant sympatise with the 'uninformed majority" as much as you do.....and, in my case, i see that speaker and the listeners both as culprits. I know the incident u r talking about, and if thats the audience u r talking abt, am sorry. They are 'educated' and can speak sense. They dont want to, because of religion. And why do you think the speaker was one sided? BECAUSE OF RELIGION.
@ Ram.
When the time was right to do something, I laughed it off. That was my flaw. Which is why I stated not to get me wrong. My religious opinions were perhaps strengthens by the situation and it opened my eyes to many more that followed. But we’ll leave those to a later discussion.
I absolutely agree when you say that small actions bring about small positive changes. What these action are depends on the situation in context and for us to feel for our opinion on the topic, at least enough to do something.
And I probably didn’t, which is why I asked for opinions on what could be done to make change, Ajinkya. That does not make me a hypocrite. It makes me keen to learn what I can do to make change.
@ Elvin
If one does not believe in the concept of a God, the followers become redundant. Your comments come from a very one-sided perspective.
With regard to knowing who your enemy is, that’s the thing, no one knows who the enemy is, like Ajinkya said. Which makes the fight superfluous. So in disagreeing with Ajinkya, you are actually on the same side.
And yes, we don’t need religion today, at least not so prominently. If you want to believe, it’s an individualistic decision, that each human being should make on their own, and not mechanically stamped as the follower of such-and-such faith because you are born into it, etc.
It is a huge problem being analyzed with small parameters. It is a problem of choice vs. stacking and steorotyping that happens on the daily with brain washing. If you’ve found your God, appreciate it for yourself. Don’t assume that we all need religion to survive (ref: your salt, food, redbull blah)
Religion, like a soldier going to war, should be a choice (of a way of life) made by the individual when it is time to make the choice. Perhaps then, you’ll look at the situation from the outside and point its flaws. Understand that there is a reason that so many of us here who have spoken ‘for’ the mother post and that we are not taking of an eradication of one’s belief, but trying to open ourselves to the idea that something’s going really wrong.
I agree with Shazzy completely, even to the point of understanding that we are too naïve to claim we have a solution by arguing the terms. But the more people know learn to accept that there may be a flaw, (By which I mean, millions don’t. They believe because people around them believe and such consensus has proved not to be healthy), the more the chances of some difference.
@ Bibinhio
“Man endorses religion today just because he sees it as an umbrella that will provide him some protection against others.”
Very well put and definitely the case. Religion is the umbrella that provides spiritual juice to some while others hide under it. As long as people are holding their umbrellas up, all is assumed to be well (because the force, the multitude and the REAL god is with them, you see), while the non-believers go ignored or looked down upon. Not to mention the ‘punishment’ we risk from that same 'god’ by not abiding to the ways of life he left behind for us a who-knows-how-many generations ago!
Please! If it doesn’t apply me in this time span, in my reality, it doesn’t! And from the general flow of people’s opinions on this space, it seems like it does not apply to almost all of you. So why are we still labeled under it – and that’s my fight!
Thankfully, religion was never forced down my throat like it is for a lot of people I know. Families risk excommunication if there is a wanderer among them. ::holds head in mortal fear:: WHY? Isn’t it only natural for people to search for their own faith, truth, spirituality, god – and relish over its finding when they do? But there is only all this mine-yours-ours crap all the time.
@Ram,
am still not convinced when you say that the common man has time to think about ideologies. By referring to common man, think about the man on the street. Or else, the average man who walks on the street.
"we do have a solutiuon, but only with an open mind. with logic in mind, and make each other agree." very well put. We are supposed to do it. But we tend to get emotionally charged and do several things to free out ego that we have to eleminate the entire system too.
well take the example of any UN Peace Keeping Forces. DOn't they use guns. I am talkaing about such uses.
Religion is money today. no doubt about it. But who's mistake is? the person's or religion's?
And yeah. I hate the fact that billions are spent on nuclear programmes while millions die of hunger.
"the minority is always fooled by the majority"-how?
The main reason why some people go on showing it off is because they want assurance themselves about the incentives that his/her religion promises of. And that is wrong. A big NO to it.
No one has unified the concepts of Gods of all religions till date. SO it does matter for many who their "God" is. If some one unifies it, then yes. May be then people will stop saying 'my-my' and start 'ours-ours'.
"Religion works, and does damage for my life". Fine ram. Not a problem. If it does not work for you, then you needn't endorse it. But you should not look down upon the person who thinks that it works for him. If you do, then you are doing exactly what every other religious leader is doing in the world.you are also feeding you ego by assuring yourself that what you think is right.
Like that if we look at it, all concepts give people the freedom to screw it up. Everything depends on how well you can screw it up.
By quoting the incident I meant that, I could thwart it cos I knew about the topic. My other friends could. But what about someone who does not have any clue about the topic. Some, even though are educated are dumb (You want me to give you examples ;P)
Bottom Line:Religion is good, if not for all but for many. DOn't take away that like from them. Many can't swim and they need the lifebuoy called religion. If you think you can swim, please ho ahead and do it. But don't look down upon people who use the lifebuoy as weak.
@Cat,
Religion is a personal thing. Even though certain activities are group based, the majority of it is quite personal. It's true that people should not enforce their's on others. But just cos people don't keep it to themselves does not mean that the religion part of it is wrong. The person's concepts are skewed. Many people cling on to it as that's their only hope.One can not take it out of the world just like that.
We share the same opinion when you said that religion is individualistic. It is my personal stand that every individual deserves a right to choose. He should be presented with facts from all the sides about different view points. He can take his pick after that. Just cos you are born into it does not mean that you can't go out of it.
And I have never forced my opinion about this topic on someone else. I was answering your question of why we need religion at all. If the concept does not appeal to you, good enough. Don't buy it. But do not take it away from people who have found theirs too.
I understand the point that we are faced with a problem today and that we are trying to find a solution to it. But that's the precise reason why I am here too. Else I wouldn't have been speaking. I am not speaking for any specific religion but for the concept.
Millions believe in it due to the system and cos people around them think that way. very true. We should question every act or fact stated to us.Something that all of us need to do. I questioned and today many of my concepts about God, religious institutions, etc are different.
Labelling is done by men. not by the 'God' or 'religion'. Rigidness in the system comes when we refuse to move.
Elvin,
Nope..you are jumping to the bottom line too soon.
Dude, if common man does not involve himself in the thinking and discourses of religion, how do you think tirupati makes hundreds of crores a year, mullah's in mosques come in fancy cars and international pastors own Jets??!?? I am not saying the common man has to think for 5 hours a day... But he drops that ten bucks into the Hundial...he votes based on religion..he believes that faker there...and its his ego...thats why he should be blamed.
Exactly Elvin, so all this stupidity has nothing to do with Religion, does it??? It is OUR EGO. Read the post, I have problem with religion in PRACTICE, not in PRINCIPLE. And none of us practice religion the way it should be.
UN is a BAD BAD BAD example... Man! We are living in a capitalist world with US ruling......how do u believe the UN??? Hahahaa
Again, abt Religion is money, yeah! So thats my problem...Religion is something it shouldnt be! So do AWAY with it in its Present form.
No one has unified the concept of god, so yeah, no religion we know of is right and necessary. Religion was never about god, it was always about money and politics. How do you think colonialisation worked? They had only one aim, spread Christianity. U say if we unify it, we ll say 'ours-ours'. I say you take it off, there is no scope for useless discussion of yours or mine or ours.
No elvin. Only to a hypocritic believer in god does it matter who the god is. Or he has been thought really really wrong things. If you believe in god, it does not matter if u say Jesus or Allah or Rama. If you think it matters who the god is, you are a part of the same problem, because that mentality leads to discrimination, not among ppl like you, but there are people who do that, and thats human mentality.
Its the fake notion that you ll drown in life without religion is the reason ppl think of it as a lifeboat. The water is not all that deep! Try living life without religion, but peace, righteousness and other good things you dont need your relgion for. you ll end up saving a LOT of money, time and living in peace.
I am not looking down on a person who thinks it works for him. I am just trying to make them understand how it actually does damage to the entire society.
@ Elvin.
No doubt it is a personal thing and many people do cling onto it as their only hope. The problem, in my opinion, is that this blind hope that people put onto it is defected. And if any religious problems that we see in the world today need to be solved, it should be tackled at its grassroot level: recognize the ‘blind’ in the faith.
You seem to have found your Gods, a quality that I may envy on a philosophical level. What people who think like me have is a bowlful of hypocrites and opinion leaders, enforcing [slash] subjecting on us values and ways of life that don’t fit us. And unfortunately, our standing up against it only demoralizes us, if not anything else.
Thus the way you look at the topic of question becomes different from the way I do. Your belief in the God makes the system skewed. My belief in individualism rids thought of a god and places faith in people to live and let live, making the whole concept of the God skewed. Neither of us can change that about the other, but we can allow the other to nourish their sentimentalities without question. Yes?
@ Ram.
Stop being so condescending! We’re not here to remove people of their opinion, but hope to find meaning in each others. Your disclaimer discredits the tone of your entire comment. You are no opinion leader to create understanding for everyone else, so stop talking so much! That, in itself, is being as charlatan as ever. What’s the difference between you are those preachers out there trying to brainwash you into your belief. Our fight is against people who DON’T realize what they believe in and not to eradicate all the positives with the concept along with the negatives that religion brings about.
billy cat,
Its a blog, I am allowed to shout scream, 'remain silent and not do anything' and counter-attack anyone who does any of the above if i like it. And i give the same oppurtunity to everyone. That way, who were you to call me a hypocrite? :P U did, and i went on wit it logically rite??? Try logic.
if what i say makes sense, you wudnt bother as to whether i shout or whisper, whether i am condesceding or whatever! As far as I am concerned, if u tell me something 'condescendingly', but if it makes sense, i wud'nt bother, i wud jus agree.
Here is another disclaimer, people go to the 'tone' and the 'use' of language when they dont have answers for the questions raised.
Moving on to the subject in question, ....
Another LOGICAL question, what are the 'positives' in religion no other things in the world cannot give?
And, i came up with another comparison.
*non-condescending tone*:P
Religion is like "stabbing a man on his back in the dark". It is like advertising. Its need is always felt superficially, but deep down there, it is just a money making machine, if at all needed, is only for exhausting resources and fooling the common man.
Think of the above lines with Religion and Ad points of view. Makes a lot of sense to me!
@ Ram.
What you said does not make sense in context. Which is why I said what I said. Read my post again, dont argue for the sake of sounding right when you are not. And stop being defensive. Contrary to whatever you think, you nor I have all the answers. Try looking at reason to support yourself. Logical enough? [But this is a debate of a different nature. We'll keep our fueds outside of the conversation!]
I do not support religion because it makes no meaning to my life. For another, say like Elvin, Religion is the channel that leads to their spirituality giving them hope to base their fears on - just like I would base mine on say writing, or my music, or my indulgence in nutella! And there is no harm done if this individual doesnt try to impose what fits for him on you and me, or indulge in violent forcefulness, like a lot of examples you have quoted in your post. So be humble about your opinions and accepting to another's perception of their life. As long as it's not directly imposed on you, what's your problem? Fight with the people who need fighting against, not with sentiments that are not insecure, like yours, mine and Elvin's.
Phew.
Enough heat. On a more on-your-side note - because i do agree with the basic point of your thoughts, just not the way you defend them - great analogy! A lot of instances go against the concept of Religion in a sense of it's monetary greediness. And there are a lot of people who dont recognise this.
For instance, my maid back home in Bangalore converted to Christianity recently because the Religion offered her some incentives. A lot of chitter-chatter went on with her to understand her course of action. The Religion gave her some saving grace when she needed it, so she demolished a faith that she had already been following blindly, only to enter into another blind faith. What do you know, now she takes her three sons to Church every sunday and puts whatever little she saves into a bag they pass around.
Islam, the religion of my own forefathers, ask for something called a 'Vajebaat' - a sort of fee you pay the community on a yearly basis to imply that you are a part of them. Ridiculous? It's like a tax, for faith!! Come on!! And incidently, my dad hasnt paid this fee for over three years now and our family has been blacklisted... proving your point of it being a money making scheme all the way!
But people who dont challenge it a business and actually maintain to hold their faith in their Gods, without any harm to another's mentality/life cannot be questioned, dont you think? Whatever happened to live and let live?
@ Ram,
Dude. Think. When I talked about UN keeping forces, I was not talking about the effectivenenss of it in the global arena. Come out of the defence journalism class. I was talking about the GUN and not the UN. They have similar spellings, not names.
"No one has unified the concept of god, so yeah, no religion we know of is right and necessary. Religion was never about god, it was always about money and politics."- Ram please consider the fact that religion was used in politics to gain power. Religion was not 'made' to be used as a power tool.Somewhere you are stating the escapist point of view by painting something either black or white. Do remember that there are grey areas in life and most of the concepts fall in those grey areas. You are generalising things which is not good.
What's your definition of righteousness man? All the religious bandits of the world consider themselves 'righteous' and expect a 'special place' in heaven.
Trust me. If someone trusts in religion and if he has even a little bit of social responsibility, he will make sure that no damage is caused to the society. You can not say that just cos someone is 'religious' he is causing problems for the society. You are discriminating based on faith yourself.
"I am allowed to shout scream, 'remain silent and not do anything' and counter-attack anyone who does any of the above if i like it. And i give the same oppurtunity to everyone."-The religious speakers state their 'right to express' and 'right to practise and propogate their religion' when questioned. Please do not use the same tactics as them.
"Here is another disclaimer, people go to the 'tone' and the 'use' of language when they dont have answers for the questions raised."-What's happening man?
@Cat,
That's the exact point that I've been making. It's quite personal and we as individuals should understand that these things are personalised. And that one needs to respect the other person if he believes in God/Religion or not. We should not try to stop each other from doing what we have been doing in terms of religion.
""well take the example of any UN Peace Keeping Forces. DOn't they use guns. I am talkaing about such uses. ""
Thats from your post elvin. That word there..it sure does look like UN to me!! And, you are illustrating you "GUN" theory with a "UN" example, which I think is kind of funny, because the UN DOES NOT really go for Peace Keeping.
I think you are a bit confused with the thesis submission. :) :P
Again Elvin, I AM TALKIN ABT RELIGION IN PRACTICE. How many times do i have to say that??????? I SAID IT IS FINE TO PRACTICE RELIGION, IN PRINCIPLE. But religion in its present form is Crap.
Yes, Ok. Agreed religion was meant to be a great great thing. But, who practices THAT religion now???? I am in touch with reality.
I am not discriminating based on faith, I am defying it.
Trust me, if someone has a bit of social responsibility alone, and nothing else, he ll save a lot of resources and lead a peaceful life.
Dude, dont compare yourself to listeners of a religious-political rally. I thought all of us were smart enough to not get carried away by a maniac who is shouting. I hope we are all sensible enough not to get carried away by my 'tactics'. !! The fact that we are still discussing with our own viewpoints proves that it does not matter how I speak. Which is Good.
That line was not for you.
Religion is not personal today Elvin. Not at all. No one is stopping each other from practicing religion, but only demanding to keep it away from other worldly activities. And that is not done AT ALL in the present world, not even by someone as humble and good-natured as you.
On a sober note, what bothers me is this. When people are religiously inclined, it is easy for politicians to appease them 'religiously' and get away with whatever they do. It is easy for them to make money for themselves. Religion has the tendancy to make masses emotionally illogical and act in a anti-social manner. Not always, but it happens, will happen. And how much do we spend on religion and religious places? Do we need to? And, if we dont spend that much, will religion exist today? Look at the economics of religion today. The MONEY is the backbone. So why call it spiritual and all that.......
Caaaattt.....
Read the post, again. I think I did make sense in context. :) Yes ti keeping the feuds outside, :)
I fight not to prove my point of view, but in order to face something strong enough to change my point of view, in case it is wrong, making my fight all the more louder, stronger and ridiculous. Every fight either strengthens my point of view, or changes it completely. So far, the latter has not happened. :)
Above post by Ram. Sorry!
@ Ram.
What you want to say probably does make sense, but you're not putting it across right, sweetheart!
We agree on a lot of levels, why would I try to correct what you say otherwise? You communicate very agressively, almost like the imposers of religions themselves and I pretty sure thats not you intention. How can you be open to different points of view if you are stubborn and ridiculous about yours?
Different points of view does not mean accepting Religion, but being open minded of the fact that some people get their spiritual juices from it! You cant change that, you are not strong enough. But you can help make sense to those who dont know whats happening.
I've read and re-read posts enough number of times to be sure of what im talking about. Straighten your tie and make your points in context. Stop drifting off the topic in question!
Congrat Cat.
Now, come on, you drifted from the topic first! :P
Whatever, we quite seem to agree at a basic level. So, bunk it.
I am waiting for Elvin's reply.
My mistake i referred to UN. The point that I was trying to make over here is that there are positive uses for everything. thats one thing that i have learnt of late-there is nothing that is completely right or wrong in the world.
I was late in replying to this post cos of my thesis. but certainly not confused. I dod my thesis in three weeks and trust me, I was not fully in it.
Trust me Ram. No matter what all 'crap' comes into religion, somewhere someone wouold be practising it. trust me some have done it, and they have had a great impact on people. take Mother Teresa for e.g.
You are not discriminating based on faith. but you seem to be against the fact that some people have pro-religion thoughts even though they do not plan to 'spread' it.
What do you mean by 'peaceful life'?
I did not compare myself to other listeners. I said that people like them on the top talk like this and thats the reason why many people are lead astray.
you are true on the point that religious leaders actually misuse religion. i agree, and am sad about it. it was never meant to be so.
We should respect mother teresa for her humanitarian efforts, not for her religious reasons. I dont know much about her philosophy of life except that she was a great human being. but, I am pretty sure she was a great human being because she helped the poor for humanity, if not for any reason at all. You dont need a reason to help someone, not even religion. If she did it because of religion, I might change my opinion about her.
I am against pro-religious actions. even small actions. because, the various things we do in the name of religion, and we strongly believe our religion wants us to do, are the feed for the problems of our country. Spreading is a bigger sin, but letting it happen and acknowledging it sub-consciously too does damage.
A peaceful life is when we dont need blogposts like these.
And, there, you agree religious leaders misuse our religious feelings. Thats wat I said, religion, like it is in practice today, should be done away with.
I guess i can afford to offer the bottom line now.
You should have strong reasons to believe in God, more than just the fact that your family or society is religious. And to do that, you should give a thought to the argument that god may not exist, it will make your belief stronger in God if you are ever able to beat that argument. And when you are sure of God, keep Him within yourself. You dont need religion to believe in god, to lead a good life or anything else. You dont need religion to be a good human being, especially when the same virtue can make you so emotional that it can feed the needs of anti-social elements and can be misused.
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